textadventure a day ago | next |

This was long coming and announced (Steam had a big hard to miss warning whenever opened on Win 7, for pretty much the entire year), but yet another reminder that when it comes to digital libraries (of games, apps, music, movies, books, etc), your "ownership" of your titles is dependent on countless variables.

Even though GOG's own client (GOG Galaxy) has been requiring Windows 10 for even longer, you could always just download the games from their website and manually install them no problem.

exe34 a day ago | root | parent | next |

not your (gpl) source code, not your game.

oliwarner 17 hours ago | root | parent | next |

It's easy enough to maintain ABI compatibility layers for games to run them indefinitely, even cross platform (eg Wine, emulators, etc etc etc)

I don't demand GPL rights over the movies I watch, or the books I read, so I'm not sure why I'd require that for games. Of course source-available would be better than not but it's not a hill I'm willing to die on. I'd rather play some good games.

tylerchilds a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

gpl is still subject to bit rot and likely the reason there aren’t more gpl games

there’s misaligned incentives between the people writing the game and the people wielding c compilers as political weapons.

i swear every time i can’t compile code it is not clear which aspect of c failed— the dynamic linker working around gpl limitations as technical debt, the kernel itself using a more advanced c with backwards breaking changes, the code being written for the wrong architecture triple, or the code was written for a different c compiler altogether

i don’t actually try and fix it because bit rot only gets worse if i notice the problem.

beached_whale a day ago | root | parent |

at least for linux, it might make sense to containerize the environment and store it. That way next time if it doesn't build on current, one can use the prev that did work.

tylerchilds 14 hours ago | root | parent |

i use linux on a daily basis and i will say microsoft’s solution to containerization was the .exe

linux has appimage, but containerization also falls prey to gpl.

exe, appimage, containerization are ideologically opposed to the gpl—- errr the other way around. gpl essentially requires compiling from source, which is great, but the intention behind that is to disrupt software supply chain distribution and most people want to be able to upgrade their computer, which is architecturally challenging with gpl, which is where nix, guix and the like can politely solve the compilation and distribution problem

but the core problem is my mom wanted a picture of me to know i’m alive, which is now entirely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

gjsman-1000 a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Even if that were possible, the GPL license makes no sense for artwork or music, and is quite possibly legally unenforceable in such a context. You need a combination of GPL + Commons; and how many games are licensed that way?

But even then, GPL + Commons does not give you trademark rights, only the ability to reuse the assets under a different name. So unless you have GPL + Commons + Trademark, do you really have ownership?

But hold on, in Japan and in the US, game mechanics can be patented. So who cares if you have the code, assets, and trademark, if you don't have patent rights? I suppose you need GPL + Commons + Trademarks + Patent Assignment; or maybe you swap out GPL with Apache2.

Now hopefully whoever made the artwork doesn't sue for unpaid royalties. You're relying on the declared licenses, but it's still possible that whoever made the game, lied in one way or another. It's also possible there are applicable patents owned by other companies, which weren't disclosed.

The point is: Even with GPL code, it's still a long way from being "your game." I didn't even mention the middleware like Havok Physics or Unity Engine; which would render your GPL game code pretty useless without a proprietary attachment, if using the GPL license at all is even legal with such a combination.

Zenst a day ago | prev | next |

This could be interesting, though it became less so after they dropped Vista in my experience. Currently, people can upgrade to Windows 10 or 11 for free. The main issue for many, however, is that Windows 11 only supports certain CPUs. As a result, many users with systems powerful enough for the games they play on their system that are already beyond the required specs will see themselves forced into an upgrade they would not otherwise need, want, and perhaps afford.

LetsGetTechnicl a day ago | root | parent | next |

It's pretty easy to get around Windows 11's CPU requirements, and the only new snag being the POPCNT instruction requirement introduced in 24H2. But if you don't have CPU that supports that you probably don't want to be running modern Windows anyways.

If you really don't want to use Windows 11 (and I don't blame someone for that) Linux and Proton is truly amazing.

alephxyz a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features

recursive a day ago | root | parent | next |

That's just like... your opinion man.

People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier. If you really want to communicate with someone and not just score points for your team, you should say what the malware is, and why you're calling it that.

yjftsjthsd-h a day ago | root | parent | next |

Since at least XP, in my memory, and yes it is pretty easy to argue that every version has gotten worse.

Some highlights:

"Windows 10 nagging users with Bing advertisements (push alerts)" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27337382

"Why can an ad break the Windows 11 desktop and taskbar?" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28404332

"Microsoft accidentally reveals that it is testing ads in Windows Explorer" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30711277

EDIT: And to finish the throughline back to XP, every version of Windows since then has included more "telemetry", which a perfectly reasonable person could describe as "spyware".

Symbiote a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

The standard Windows first-run setup prompts with dark patterns to show advertising and send private data like keystrokes and microphone audio to Microsoft. It very strongly pushes the user to use a Microsoft account to sign in to their own computer.

(This is my experience in the EU, so presumably the relatively polite version.)

It seems reasonable to call this malware. It's what software like browser toolbars did 20 years ago, and they were widely criticised for it.

Out_of_Characte a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

I dont consider that an opinion anymore.

You have to look at microsoft and windows from the perspective of an actual software product. Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush. Let that sink in. Either you accept that candy crush itself is malware preying on an innocent microsoft or there is a significant and hostile attempt by microsoft to push unwanted and distracting software onto consumers. Which is practically the definition of malware. You could add the countless other examples of advertisement and other unwanted behaviour that is not fit for an operating system and you'll find they fit the description of malware. If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.

vel0city 14 hours ago | root | parent | next |

> Who in their right mind would find it acceptable if their program/operating system decided to automatically download candy crush

Your argument wasn't really based in reality. Windows didn't have Candy Crush actually installed; it was a shortcut to get it from the store.

And even then, we could rephrase that. Change "candy crush" to "mahjong titans" or "3D pinball" or "minesweeper" or "hover" or "hearts" or "solitaire" or "reversi", all games that were actually installed on a fresh install of Windows instead of just being a link to install it separately. Why aren't you then complaining about Reversi or Hover? Where was the outrage in the 1980s over this? Why is it such a big deal that its "candy crush"?

Microsoft has been bundling in games to its operating systems since 1985. I don't get why people suddenly made a big deal about it when it became a shortcut to Candy Crush.

gjsman-1000 a day ago | root | parent | prev |

> If you happen to disagree then I would like to ask you what fits the description of the candy crush saga on windows really is.

It's whatever Dell and HP preloading McAfee is; which they've been doing in one way or another for decades.

aniviacat a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Windows 11 literally contains ads

xnyan a day ago | root | parent | next |

I'm having to deal with increasingly pushy ads from Apple. Banner notifications with ads for their tv, news, game and music services, as well as fake alerts in the settings app that say some bullshit like "Setup required - signup for some icloud storage now!" I work at an outfit that uses RHEL, they absolutely inject ads for their services whenever you use a shell. Microsoft is the most distasteful, but it's matter of degrees for most OS vendors.

vel0city 14 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Windows XP contained ads. It had a demo for a game suite bundled in it. It had so many references to Microsoft Passport. Its defaults were set to msn's website filled with ads. It was set up to easily get connected to certain ISPs out of the box. Windows Messenger often had ads and was bundled in it. Security Center pushed antivirus subscriptions. Windows Media Player had ads in it from time to time.

recursive a day ago | root | parent | prev |

Not saying it doesn't, but I've been using it daily for years, and at least haven't noticed them.

Symbiote a day ago | root | parent |

You probably deactivated them, are using a corporate PC whose owner deactivated them, or live in a country Microsoft doesn't advertise in.

The existence of the adverts is very widely reported in the technical press.

yellowapple a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

> People have been saying this about Windows since Vista or earlier.

And they've been 100% correct in doing so since Vista or earlier.

recursive a day ago | root | parent |

Then a loss of support for 7 and 8 doesn't really mean much.

yellowapple 41 minutes ago | root | parent |

Less baked-in malware is arguably better than more baked-in malware.

But sure, a loss of support for 7 and 8 indeed doesn't mean much for those of us who've already migrated away from Windows.

alephxyz a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Okay here are the first few that come to mind:

- displaying a full screen dialog on login asking me to enable OneDrive with options being: yes/remind me in 3 days/remind me in a week;

- ads in start menu;

- using MS Edge + bing for searches from the start menu, disregarding the default browser;

- ditto but for Outlook links (at least this one can be disabled)!

- different pop up/dialogs that prompt you to switch to Edge/Edge+copilot every few weeks

raxxorraxor 13 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

Nah, Win 11 introduced secure boot enforcement and forces you to use a Microsoft account. That is a new magnitude of enshitification. Even in corporate environments people get nervous.

And yes, some aspects were better in older windows versions. MS itself decided they won't remove the control panel as advertised, because the settings app is just shitty or dysfunctional.

This is beyond the level of shittyness that was Vista or Windows 8.

gjsman-1000 a day ago | root | parent | prev |

> The big issue with Win10/11 is that it contains malware marketed as features

Besides being extremely opinionated, remember the time Linux users were trying to say this about systemd? Now systemd is widely accepted except for the luddites at Devuan.

yallpendantools a day ago | root | parent | next |

I know the whole debate around systemd but I never knew people even considered it to be along the lines of malware. I checked Devuan (which I also just learned from your comment) and they say

> Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian without systemd that allows users to reclaim control over their system by avoiding unnecessary entanglements and ensuring Init Freedom.

which, okay, points towards that direction but I can't find what they exactly consider "unnecessary entanglements" nor what exactly means "Init Freedom".

I'm genuinely curious, what exactly are people saying about systemd being "malware"?

Symbiote a day ago | root | parent | prev |

I don't remember that, and I can't find any evidence of it.

Some vocal users claimed Systemd was being forced upon them, or was taking over too much of the systems functions, or represented a loss of flexibility or choice, etc. (My opinion isn't relevant to your point.)

No one was claiming it would maliciously interfere with the computer's security or the user's privacy.

MrLeap a day ago | root | parent | prev |

I feel for the stubborn Win7 holdouts. Based on what I've seen of windows 11, I flat out refuse to install it. The ad/attention theft situation in 10 was already galling enough. 10 has become better after I found all the checkboxes to disable but the bad taste it left in my mouth has lingered.

Hearing it gets even worse in 11 made me realize I want very badly to get off the dark pattern carousel. I sat down and really evaluated what ties me to windows. Not as much as in the past, it turns out.

Unity/Godot have linux editors. I'll give Rider a try. Krita/Blender have first class linux support.

Of the software I use regularly, the only things that are probably dead in the water are Embergen and Worldmachine. I don't even know if I want to maintain a win10 dual boot or a vm. I'm thinking I'll make a token attempt to get them running in wine, and if there's no play, I'll change my workflow. Both are great software packages, but such is life.

ryandrake a day ago | prev | next |

> You should still be able to continue gaming on your system as long as you don't forcibly update Steam, though how long that remains possible remains to be seen.

This is always the question when "drops support" comes up: Will users be able to at least stick with the older version of Steam, and just not take updates, or will users get hit with the usual shitty modern software catch 22: You can't use the software because it's not the latest version, and you can't get the latest version.

I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky.

howard941 a day ago | root | parent | next |

This is like the Android environment. At some point apps require a newer Android than my phone has and I'm left sucking my thumb without even the older app's functions. (I'm looking at you CapOne)

cluoma a day ago | root | parent |

I feel you, extremely frustrating when the phone is otherwise in good working order. I've started to get update prompts from apps, on my aging iPhone, even though no new versions exist for my OS.

burningChrome a day ago | root | parent | prev |

>> I hate to say it but I think we really need some kind of basic regulation in this area. Companies should not be able to just decide to remotely stop you from using your software just because they consider it old and icky.

I totally agree, but also disagree.

I worked at a large corporation that designed and built lawn maintenance equipment. It sold both commercial and retail products.

I worked there as a front-end developer. This was in the mid aughts when it had already been 5-6 years since companies had dropped support for it and developers were already migrating to Chrome and Firefox. I was told everything I coded had to have backward compatibility with get this. . . . .IE 6. They said they had several vendors in China and overseas and the only way they could order their stuff was on a site that still worked in IE6. It was more or less just an order form they would print out, fill in, and then fax to our office for fulfillment. It was probably the most mind numbingly stupid experience I was put through and it felt like torture telling your dev friends you're still dealing with having to code stuff for IE6.

So yes, I agree, but we should at least have some kind of limitation on how long a company needs to support their software since it eventually ends up costing the company a lot of time and energy. The company I worked for had spent a lot of money to deal with all the issues associated with supporting IE6. Developer churn was pretty high because devs would get there and think they were having to work at some clown show because this company had made the decision to stick with this very outdated technology.

So yes, I agree we need regulation, but we also need some decent guard rails so what happened to me at the above company doesn't continue to happen.

ryandrake a day ago | root | parent |

Totally. Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting companies be obligated to continue developing new code for older systems. Just that they not be allowed to pull the rug out from under existing users who want to simply continue using the software that already works for them.

I used to use the "FlightAware" app on my iPhone to look up information about airplanes, airline flights and stuff. Last "update" they pushed out was a single modal dialog that essentially says "You can no longer use this application on your device. You need to buy a new phone." The software was working perfectly one day, and then bam, sorry not sorry. That's what FlightAware means by dropping support: Pulling the rug out from under existing users who would be happy to just continue using their older version.

SG- a day ago | prev | next |

Unless I'm mistaken too, the macOS Steam client is still Intel only after all this time. It's not a huge market but I find it kind of weird since there's many Apple Silicon games on Steam for sale.

jjcm a day ago | root | parent |

This too is my biggest request. It's also surprising how many resources the client itself takes.

That said, given the stats I agree with their prioritization. OSX makes up 1.39% of their market share: https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/Steam-Hardware-Softw...

Linux has a higher market share than OSX (likely due to the Steam deck, but still I was surprised by this).

I actually think this is something Apple should be taking the lead on, rather than Steam. It's clear that they value gaming on their devices, they just invest so little in it. Input latency is still poor and there are still big hiccups in frame rates which make competitive games on OSX a non-starter. If Apple invested more here and partnered with Steam, they could make some significant headways. Apple seems to want to avoid partnership here though (ie the prior vulkan vs metal issues).

jamesfinlayson a day ago | root | parent | next |

It seemed like someone at Apple was on board with gaming when Steam launched a Mac client and Mac versions of all of their games - maybe they were partially funding Valve's efforts? But based on what is happening now I'm guessing that's all over.

brodock a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Why would Valve help Apple get marketshare (in the gaming category), when they can put the same effort into getting the games published to Linux (and the Steam Deck).

SG- 8 hours ago | root | parent |

because the two markets are different but they're also making more money off other peoples platforms too.

brian-armstrong a day ago | root | parent | prev |

Steve Jobs was famously anti-gaming. That presumably still leaves a lot of leftover sentiment within Apple.

SG- a day ago | root | parent |

he's been dead a while now and they've clearly put some focus in games and have moved on to new products too since that decision was made (iPhones weren't even a thing back then).

jpalawaga a day ago | prev | next |

Interesting. Windows 7 is a number of years old, but doesn't feel that old in the grand scheme of things.

It feels sort of crappy that those users are no longer able access the titles they paid to access.

dathery a day ago | root | parent | next |

Windows 7 is older today (15 years) than Windows 95 was when Windows 7 was released (14 years).

o11c a day ago | root | parent |

It doesn't feel like it since there hasn't been much improvement in the latter range of time.

At least Windows 7 could claim that it resolved most of the permissions bugs that came from upgrading security to 1970s standards, so it was actually an upgrade to XP.

caspper69 a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Time flies when you're having fun I guess.

Windows 10 released on July 29, 2015 or almost 9.5 years ago.

While I'm sure there are people gaming with Steam on 7/8/8.1, I doubt it's very many (Valve's own statistics I'm sure would support this).

I would also point out that Steam on Linux only officially supports the latest LTS release of Ubuntu, which means they support old versions of Windows far longer. Of course, Ubuntu is free, and the kernel hasn't introduced any draconian hardware restrictions, but I think Valve has done a good job with their Windows support.

arka2147483647 a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Windows 7, released 2009. Thats 15 years.

I would say that is a long stretch of support by any measure.

bambax a day ago | root | parent | next |

But why? Why is it acceptable to consider OSes 15 years old ancient, when that logic never applied to almost any tool in the history of mankind, and still doesn't apply to any other category except software?

In my home all the machines are 20+ years old and work perfectly fine (oven, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, irons...) not to mention things that don't need electricity, which are 30 or sometimes more than 80 years old (furniture but also cookware, etc.)

A bike that's 20 years old feels ok and modern; a bike starts to really look ancient at maybe 50 years old? We can still drive cars made in the 80s and 90s (and they're often better than newer ones).

Windows 7 works fine, why should it go to waste, and the machine it run on, and why should people be forced to upgrade and change or abandon all the little customisations they have set up that makes their lives easier? Don't we have better things to do with our time than relearn a new way to do the exact same thing?

I understand the motivation of vendors to try and sell new things; what I don't get is why we put up with it.

vel0city 14 hours ago | root | parent | next |

I wasn't dealing with Bluetooth devices 80 years ago.

For a ton of people the demands of what they're expecting from their software change pretty radically in 15 years.

These days I'm needing more modern hardware support than what Windows 7 offers. I'm managing Bluetooth devices and swapping audio devices much more often. I'm far more connected than 15 years ago. The security threat landscape is pretty different today than 15 years ago. I'm using much larger screens (and vastly different aspect ratios) than 15 years ago and prefer to use the built-in snap layouts rather than just the basic left/right/center in 7. Dozens of more things that just end up making the experience of going back to 7 pretty painful in the end.

jonp888 a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

No-one is forcing you to stop using Windows 7 if you don't want to. It's just no longer suitable for this specific use case(running the latest steam client).

If you apply the same test to other things you mentioned then often they are the same. They will continue doing the same job if you want them to, but they won't meet new requirements placed upon them, and the only realistic option is complete replacement.

For instance, cars over 20 years old are no longer allowed in central London because they lack emissions filters for particulates which are hazardous to health in high concentrations. These cars are considered ancient and it's acceptable to ban them from one of the most important cities in the world. They're not better, and in this specific case you literally can't still drive it(if you live London).

My 20 year old DVD player cannot play BluRay discs. It's considered ancient, and it was acceptable to create a new incompatible standard. If I want to play the latest discs I'll have to buy a new one.

My dwelling has no gas supply. I have an induction cooker, which heats far faster than either gas or thermal electric whilst also avoiding the dangers of flame and uncovered heating elements. 80 year old pans would not work with it. They're ancient.

makapuf a day ago | root | parent | prev |

I understand but 15 years old PC are well serviceable (even if not up to current specs), so why destroy them because they're unsupported ? We will need to be more conservative of resources and these PC can be used (think running starcraft 2 which I enjoy or other older nice PC games)

plorkyeran a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Even once the old version of the steam client stops working you'll still be able to play the games; it'll just get harder to install them on old versions of Windows.

yjftsjthsd-h a day ago | root | parent |

Is that true? I was under the impression that Steam's (default?) DRM required the Steam client to run games.

sensanaty a day ago | root | parent |

The default steam DRM (optional btw, devs decide if they want it) is hilariously easy to bypass. Just stick a certain .dll in the game directory and it's cracked

npteljes 20 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

They had plenty of time to prepare for this. There were advance warning signs as well, for example, the end of the active support for Win 7 at, let's see, 9 years ago.

SOLAR_FIELDS a day ago | root | parent | prev |

FWIW, the equivalent release of MacOS at the time was OSX Snow Leopard, so that would be like people running Snow Leopard in 2024. I know the comparison is not exactly the same, since the philosophical approach is a bit different between the two vendors, but it does help conceptualize just how old W7 is nowadays.

LetsGetTechnicl a day ago | prev | next |

Honestly, for users affected I wonder if switching to Linux and using Proton is a suitable alternative. I've been using Pop OS and Steam on my gaming rig for a few weeks and it works incredibly well!

I've been playing the new Horizon Zero Dawn Remastered and haven't had any major issues. The only reason I keep Windows around in a dual boot setup is because of Fortnite

mjevans a day ago | root | parent | next |

Classic games probably work mostly well at this point.

https://www.protondb.com/

It'd be nice if SteamOS had more recent versions for normal PCs. Arch Linux is sufficient for a developer or power user, but for the average person is too painful.

Debian Stable (most recent update) should be a generally good experience for any PC that ran Windows 7 naively. Though I do worry about some specific hardware, mostly nVidia GPUs retaining support for that long, at least the old drivers will probably work?

LorenDB a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Unfortunately, if you want to play SteamVR games you probably should keep a Windows install around. For certain games with a basic USB-connected headset (e.g. Valve Index or HTC Vive), Linux VR gaming can work easily, but if you want to use a tethered Quest or use popular mods like UEVR, Windows is by far the better option.

Narishma a day ago | root | parent | prev | next |

That might be ok on modern hardware, but if the reason you're using Windows 7 is that your hardware is too old for newer versions of Windows, I don't think Proton is a good option. For example, I think it requires Vulkan which a lot of old GPUs don't support.

LetsGetTechnicl a day ago | root | parent |

Well I'm not sure what games you'd be running on that level of hardware at this point. It would not be very expensive to build even a low-end gaming build that would surpass the performance of Windows 7 era hardware.

Arch485 a day ago | root | parent | prev |

I got so fed up with Windows 11 and Microsoft's BS that I bought a new PC with an AMD processor and GPU so I could daily drive Linux (for context, NVIDIA hates open source and so there aren't any good drivers on Linux).

I've been running most of my games through Proton, and the experience is flawless. Only game that hasn't worked for me is Rust because of some EAC requirements.

npteljes 20 hours ago | root | parent |

Same for me, but I dual-boot Linux and Win 10 LTSC. I try everything on Linux first, and if it doesn't work well enough (Space Engineers) or has anti-cheat (Rainbow 6 Siege), then I use the Win 10 as a fallback.

LetsGetTechnicl 15 hours ago | root | parent |

Same here! I literally only have Windows 10 LTSC because Fortnite requires EAC. I'd even use Windows 11 LTSC but for some reason I can't switch my Bluetooth headphones between headphone and headset mode, which I need in order to use Discord and also hear game audio at the same time, like I can in Windows 10.

AcerbicZero a day ago | prev | next |

I like how were still re-living the classic MS 'every other OS is kinda ok' pattern.

95? Pretty ok. Idk, I didn't use it, I just watched my dad install it via like 25 floppy disks so we could play Tom Clancys SSN game. Worth it.

98? Kinda bad. Wasn't this the one to BSOD during the MS demo? Or was that ME?

2000/NT? Good. I know I kinda jumped between desktop and server OS's here, but hey, thats what I was doing with my life at the time.

ME? Bad. Might have BSOD'd during a MS demo.

XP? Good.

2003? Not great. Another server OS, but come on, it really helps the pattern, and what did 2003 bring that we didn't already have in 2000? Plus, 2003 really hated the upgrade path to 2008/R2 so I'm counting it.

Win7? Good.

Win8/8.1? So, very, very bad.

Win10? Good-ish. At least, after like, 12 months of updates and if you tear out all the nonsense ads + fix the start menu.

Win11? Cancer.

npteljes 20 hours ago | root | parent | next |

95 was very bad for me, I had to reinstall it on my PC like every week, because it was just unstable. Vista is also not great, and it's missing from your list. XP was also very, very bad first, and got better over the years with its service packs.